The following is an excerpt from the Glow Journal Podcast. You can listen to the full interview with Jouer Cosmetics founder Christina Zilber now on iTunes and Spotify.
GLOW JOURNAL: Your mother was a model, so I imagine you grew up around beauty. Do you remember what your very first encounter with beauty was?
CHRISTINA ZILBER: I really do. I feel like my first memories of beauty were at my mother’s vanity. She had this little marble tabletop, and it always just had these gorgeous lotions and potions and beautiful bottles of makeup [on it]. I was enamoured with it. I loved it. I loved watching her get ready, and I loved playing. She’d go out for the night and I would sit there and play with it all!
You’ve described yourself as a makeup hoarder, and it’s clear that you’ve had an affinity for beauty from a very young age. What is it about makeup that you love so much?
Makeup is magic. It really is. I just 100% believe in the transformative power of makeup.
If you’ve ever had a cold and been sick for five days and haven’t been able to put makeup on, the day you do put your makeup on… it’s magical. You just feel so pulled together and so good.
You were a model as well, you’ve always had an affinity for makeup, but talk to me about the in-between years- what did you think you were going to be when you grew up?
I loved acting, so I really thought I was going to go into acting. When I was in high school, I was the lead in all the school plays. That was my life. I was like kind of a theatre geek.
But interesting, as I think back on it, in those in between years my godmother used to buy the gift with purchase Estée Lauder massive makeup set during the holidays, and that was always my Christmas gift! I loved it. It would have something like 85 eyeshadows and all these different things, so I just think I always had that love for makeup in me even though I was doing other thing.
I never thought I was going to be in the beauty business. That didn’t even enter my mind, but I just always loved beauty.
How did you move from acting to modelling?
It was actually the opposite! It was the opposite professionally because I acted in high school and then I went to college and I didn’t act at all- just in fun little things. It was after I graduated from college that I went to Paris as part of a semester abroad program. It was amazing. I was asked continuously when I was in Paris “Do you model? Do you model?” because that’s the capital of modelling. It planted a seed in my head. I thought “Maybe I could do that as a way to get into professional acting.” That was my way to get an agent. It was sort my way in. I never really was interested in modelling, but I was like “I think I could get an agent that way and then I could maybe do commercials.”
That’s absolutely the way to do it- even now! You mentioned that what you loved about makeup as a child was that it had these transformative powers. Do you think that idea of transforming and transformative is perhaps what led you to acting and modelling, being a creative?
Possibly! I love literature, I love different characters and I loved acting. I loved putting the coat on, putting that costume on and becoming somebody else.
I do feel like… I think it comes from self doubt and feeling like I’m not the perfect model. I have so many issues on this little piece of face right here that I’m constantly on the search for what’s going to get rid of my dark circles, or how to contour- or whatever it is. I’m always trying to transform a little bit of myself into something “better”. And I think that’s what makeup does for me. It makes me feel alive.
And look alive! I would love to hear more about your time as a model, because I understand that part of your career did lead you to where you are now. When you were on set, were there any tips and tricks that you learnt from makeup artists that you are still using today?
Yes. 100%.
I hated modelling. I really hated modelling. I just felt that it’s just not a career for anybody who’s got a creative mind at all, because you are just a piece of flesh and they don’t really care what you think. You’re just there to put your face and body in front of a camera and serve their purposes. To me, it was just a little bit empty. But when I would go to the makeup chair, that was where I met my people. The makeup artists were my people. I was fascinated with everything they were doing.
There was one makeup artist in particular from who I learnt almost everything about my face- how to use makeup to sort of trick certain effects. I have really deep set, close set eyes, so I should never contour on my crease directly because that’s going to make my eyes appear deeper set. I was really learning that almost theatrical way of how to fix a woman’s features. I learned so many tricks that I, to this day, still use with my own makeup.
That is so the key to being a good makeup artist as well- understanding the face you’re working with.
Yes, and I feel like so many makeup artists don’t. I was sort of raised in the era of “makeup artist brands”, and that rubbed me a little bit the wrong way because makeup artists, in general, work on models. Models are so easy- you could slap mud on their face and they’d look amazing. But working with somebody like me… I’ve got two different size eyes. My nose is a little bit larger. A real makeup artist actually knows how to correct and conceal and lift and transform, and that’s what I really loved.
Kevyn Aucoin was the master. He really was. I have all of his books. I literally took notes, I used post it notes, I studied that and I loved it. And colour theory! I honestly feel that most makeup artists don’t understand colour theory. They don’t know it. They’re working with a trend, they are working with a model, but is that really what is going to help you look and feel your best?
So those are the tips you learnt from being in the makeup chair. In a broader sense, was there anything that you learnt from being a model that you find is helpful as a business owner?
As far as being the face of the brand, there’s certainly a lot about being comfortable in front of the camera. I do a lot of my own promoting, so I definitely think some of that played in. As far as business, I didn’t make enough money as a model. I was no supermodel, so I didn’t learn business from modelling. But I do think there were a lot of skills that I learned along the way that serve me now.
I read that while you were a model on set you were gifted a Japonesque palette, and that’s where it all started. Can you talk me through it?
I had been working on a film, and the makeup artists used, like, four lipsticks on me so I was asking a thousand questions. “What colour is that? Why do you use that? What is that?” She gave me this little Japonesque palette and had pushed in the lipsticks that she used. I just thought that was a miracle, and I loved it so much. I thought “I want to carry this. I want to carry my makeup around with me in this little palette.” Palettes were just kind of coming out then, but they were always in colours that you wouldn’t choose for yourself.
There’s always one colour that you use every day, and the rest are blue and green.
Yes! I always felt like it was the stuff that didn’t sell that they shoved in the palette and you’re like “But I don’t want that one. I want the nudes.” So I would go out and buy these Japonesque palettes, and then I would get a concealer because no palette ever comes with a concealer, and I’m concealer obsessed. So I’d shove in a little concealer, a cream blush, anything cream based I could put in there, and I would create my own palettes.
I ended up having hundreds of these little palettes laying around. The problem with those palettes was that, let’s say you were going out for an evening and you have a small clutch, you’re not going to put the whole thing in there.
So the idea dawned on me. Why isn’t there something where you could build your own palette, but literally only take on product if you wanted it?
The idea was this connectable palette that you could build as large or as small as you wanted. I lived with that for a few years. I would just be like “Guys, isn’t it a fun idea?” And nobody really knew what I was talking about, but that was sort of the birth of it.
I did want to ask about that- sitting on the idea. Why was that?
Well, I wasn’t in the business and I didn’t know anything about the business. I didn’t even think that that business could be a possibility- I just thought it was a really cool idea.
I kept talking to people about it. I think that if you have any idea, you should talk a lot about it because I think that manifests it in some way. It’s a network. It’s a way of networking, and you never know who is going to land in your lap.
Who landed in my lap was this woman who had just left Lorac. She had been in product development, and she left and was going out on her own as a consultant. I happened to meet her randomly and told her my idea, and she said “I could actually really help you because I know this business and I think this is a really unique idea.” She said “Most people want to start a line of lipsticks, but what’s so different about that? Your idea actually has something different and unique about it.”
So you launched the first incarnation of Jouer in 2004. How did you get it off the ground? You’d met the right person, but where to from there?
So she knew some engineers that had just graduated from FIDM in Los Angeles and they had won an award for a CD compact disc, a new design, and they wanted to get into cosmetics. We originally went to a really large manufacturer called HCT. They’re the leaders who I now work with, but at the time I didn’t. They were like “Yeah, we could do it for you. It’ll cost you $100,000 to build this.” So that was a bust!
But these guys coming out of FIDM, they were like “This is something we think is original and fun, and we’ll design it and make an SLA.” So it was only $2,000 as opposed to $100,000. Then we flew up to San Francisco to meet with Sephora, and they thought it was a really cool idea. That gave me the legs to go “Okay, we can do it. Let’s go for it.”
And that you did! I’ve spoken before on this podcast about creating a brand out of necessity, which is what you did. There are pros and cons. The advantage, obviously, is that you don’t have any competitors, but the disadvantage is that you’re starting a whole new category so you have to educate buyers and the consumer. What did you find to be the biggest challenge?
When I look back, the biggest challenge was communicating with literally everybody. You had to go through a PR company to speak to beauty editors. In order to speak to an audience, you had to go through a beauty editor. You had to get in a magazine, and the magazines were bought and paid for by the advertisers. As an indie brand… believe me, now indie brand is a cool buzzword but, back then, it was not at all. Nobody cared about me. Honestly, it was super challenging.
One of the biggest breakthroughs in a way was Birchbox. Katia, the founder, cold called one day and said “We’re starting this box and we’re looking for samples.” I had made my tinted moisturiser into little travel minis and they didn’t sell. I was selling them in little boxes of four, which I thought was genius because you could throw them into your gym bag or wherever. Nobody caught on to that idea. So I was sitting on all these deluxe sample sizes and I’m like “Sure, I’ll give you some”. They had a way of communicating with their customer base, which at that time was maybe only 2000 people. They were a conduit for Jouer to be seen and heard in a way that we hadn’t been able to before.
I would go for desk side meetings with these beauty editors where I would sit down them and they’d say “My whole desk is Jouer, I love Jouer so much, it’s so great.” And I would sit there like “Well, why am I not in the magazine? How hard is it to get in?” But it’s because they’ve committed- the Lauder companies and everybody have paid for full page ads, and that guarantees them five placements a month, so I just couldn’t squeeze in anywhere. It was just so hard to communicate. That’s the biggest thing. The biggest challenge really was communicating to the customer.
What began as an interlocking makeup pallet system in 2004 became a fully fledged cosmetics company in 2008. What happened during those four years?
We were selling in Sephora stores for two of those years, and then I realised that it is too challenging to launch a brand at Sephora. You’re educating the customer, educating the cast, updating gondolas, which are all of those displays. All of those things were too challenging at once for a small brand. So I pulled out.
I also felt that I was limited in the packaging, particularly as far as getting in magazines. Once they’ve photographed one item and it looks a certain way, they’re not going to photograph it again. They want newness. They want new products on their pages. So that was also really challenging. If everything’s in this one palette and I’m just changing the colours inside it, how can you evolve it? So I had to branch out. I had to create other products.
I knew that I had a market, so I went to Henri Bendel’s in New York and they were like “We love you, we love your idea, we’ll launch you.” So we rejiggered the brand and launched at Henri Bendel’s in New York.
You already had a team because you’d already established these brand, but to then start to create formulas, how did you find a chemist or manufacturer?
Luckily I had made some connections with labs in the process. I hired a product developer in around 2006. She had come from Smashbox- shout out to Sarah! She was fantastic. She was just a go getter. What’s so funny is that with Smashbox, she could call a lab and the red carpet was laid out, so she thought it was going to be exactly the same when she said “Oh, I’m with Jouer now.”
She didn’t realise that we would be the last on the production line. When you’re a small indie brand, you get no favours at all. So she got a quick lesson! We ended up going to trade shows- Cosmoprof, and the likes, to meet labs, see innovation and learn about how all that works.
You mentioned a bit earlier that when you were modelling it was the era of makeup artist brands. You’ve said yourself that you’re not a makeup artist. Did that present any issues while you were trying to come up with the formulas and develop the range?
I don’t think it was an issue coming up with the formulas because I dove into formula. I didn’t even know, when I started this brand, how much I was going to love formula. Now it’s the formula that drives everything. I’m obsessed. I’m obsessed with formula.
Where it was challenge, once again, I go back to the New York beauty editors. I had a PR company and I was told that if I didn’t have a makeup artist attached to my line, they wouldn’t pay attention. I left that PR company in two seconds. I ended up going with a fantastic PR company and they got it. They understood me.
Do you remember what you developed first?
The very first products were cheek tints. They were beautiful and fantastic and kind of iconic.
How does the product development process work now? Are you constantly thinking in advance or are you working off what the consumers are asking for?
A little bit of both. I pay attention to what the consumers are asking for. We’re reformulating, but I had a luminising moisture tint that was really a hero product. It won all kinds of awards. It was a tinted moisturiser with a little bit of luminiser. People kept asking “Can you make a matte one?” So we ended up making a matte moisture tint and then that won awards. It was really cool. So it was really customer feedback that drove that.
Now, it starts with a formula idea. Let’s say the concealer. I want a concealer that has really high coverage, but has skincare ingredients. I want it to be liquid. I’ll start with that. We’ll create a one sheet for labs, we’ll send it off and say “This is what we need, these are the ingredients that we’re hoping to have in it, these are actives that we want, and here’s what we don’t want.” We’re really, really strong on our “don’t want” lists because we’re clean beauty.
They will then submit samples back to us, and then we will test these samples. Let’s say we’ve got four labs that have presented samples, we narrow it down and say “Okay, this one feels the most right, so let’s tweak this.” We’ll start working in that way. That’s the fun part.
You touched on how you launched into Henri Bendel. That was August 2008. In October 2008, the stock market crashed. How did that change the way you were running the business?
It was crazy. When we launched in August, sales were booming. It was amazing. And literally two months later, New York City was a ghost town. It was empty.
Here’s the thing. In a way, because I was only in that one door, it was kind of good because I was able to slow down. I didn’t do a lot of product developing at that time. I was trying to understand how to sell. We were building our own website and figuring out how to send emails. I know that sounds crazy, but like you have to have a cadence to email newsletters. What is my branding? How am I messaging? All of that stuff is what I was really refining then, and that gave me a chance to do it. I’ve always said “You can’t grow too fast.” Some people do, some people do it successfully and then boom, they sell their company and lucky for them, they’re sitting on an Island somewhere and I’m still here slugging away! But I think that the slow growth is a really important step along the way.
Other than a stock market crashing, another huge change that you worked through was the move into digital. You’ve touched on how you had to go and sit desk side with a beauty editor and essentially beg to get your product in the magazine- that’s obviously not the case now, and you’ve really embraced digital. Can you talk to me about that change? Did you feel like the change to digital was coming?
I did and I didn’t. It’s funny when I look back on it. In 2014 I was doing blogger events. We would go to different cities and host bloggers, but I wasn’t so savvy about YouTube at that time. I remember people saying “Missglamorazzi talks about your tinted moisturiser,” and I’m like “Oh that’s sweet!” I didn’t know the power of the YouTuber.
I was doing home shopping network in Florida, and one day they were doing 24 hours of beauty and I happened to meet their in house expert blogger Nur. She came up to me in the hallway and said “I’ve heard of Jouer. Desi Perkins uses your highlighter.” I literally looked at her with a blank face. I’d never heard of Desi Perkins. I didn’t know what she was talking about. She said “You should send her more product.”
I ended up hiring Nur that year to guide me in the social world. We ended up having dinner the next time I came out and she was showing me the brands that were killing it online and the influencers that I should be sending to. I hired her, she flew out to Los Angeles and basically taught us how to do an influencer mail out. She would help me get people to my events, and that was really the start of it.
It’s so interesting that you did home shopping network, because I’ve had a few people on here who were in a similar position to you in that they were launching an entirely different category, and they’ve done TVSN in Australia because it’s the easiest way to communicate the whole brand’s message to the consumer.
100%. It is different audience though. That’s the only issue. In America, the home shopping audience wasn’t necessarily my target audience. I was really all about no makeup and natural skin, and that doesn’t translate well on TV. You can’t show a really strong before and after. But I think that a lot of it came together at the same time. I ended up hitting the Instagram world in a stronger way by increasing my pigments and making everything a little bit more “pop”. I think that made a difference.
Let’s talk about YouTube. You’ve mentioned Ingrid, but there’s also Jeffree Star, Nikki Tutorials, Chloe Morello and, my favourite, Wayne Goss. What does coverage like that do for a brand?
It’s huge. It’s absolutely huge. We’re lucky at Jouer because we don’t pay for these posts. I basically send my product and pray that they love it. I think that if you put out really good product, that’s what’s really important. But I also think that, if I were to start now, how hard would it be to get into their hands?! I don’t even know.
But I also think that the YouTube audience Instagram audience are savvy enough to know when someone’s just getting paid to talk about something. It’s a good thing that they just genuinely love it. Jeffree Star took his love for your brand a step further when you collaborated with him on a Lip Topper shade. How did that collaboration come about?
Every once in a while I would get a little message from Jeffree. I’m in awe of him, he’s amazing. What’s so interesting is that, out of every influencer that we’ve ever worked with, he is probably the most professional. Jeffree is so professional. He’s always been nothing but polite and kind and gracious. He reached out and set up an office meeting and we met and we clicked and we just thought “Let’s do this, this could be really fun.” And we did it!
What do you think is the key to a successful collaboration?
Truthfully, it’s the only collaboration that I’ve ever done. So I can’t speak too much to that. I’ve never wanted to be a brand that continuously collaborates because what is the brand DNA at that point? I think there are brands out there that are doing that and all power to them and they’re growing and they’re huge. Like I said, they’re probably retiring on an island somewhere happy as can be. I would love to do more, I really would, but I just haven’t really figured out what that would look like and who that would be with. I can’t force it. I’ve seen brands do it well, and I’ve seem them not do it well.
What I do know is that with Jeffree is was the right time, it was fun and playful, we had a good time together and we didn’t take it too seriously.
How did the collaborative process differ from the usual product development process?
He was a dream. I can honestly say we took our formula to him, and then presented him with some colours. He chose the colour. It was effortless. Honestly, it was so easy. Then we talked packaging. We came up with some ideas. He said “I want this and can we change it to that?” He signed off, and it was done. It was honestly the easiest collaboration.
You have touched on the brand DNA and how you want to stay true to that. You have described it as “French minimalist”. How do you manage to remain true to that brand DNA while still evolving as a company?
Somebody said to me, a couple of years ago, “If you want to sell to Estée Lauder, you have to put in more sparkle, more shine, more glitz. You have to be loud.” I’ve always found it to be challenging to be the understated, beautiful, sophisticated, classic feminine brand that I am and be loud. It’s challenging. I’m just trying to stay in my lane, you know? My lane is really great skincare ingredients. The formulas have to be top notch, luxury formulas, in gorgeous packaging that you want to have on your vanity and that you feel proud of pulling out of your bag. Just really elevating the brand and keeping it that way. It’s hard to play in loud cosmetic world when you’re that. But if I keep staying on my path, we’ll get there.
I think you’re there already. Aside from Jouer, you do some really important, inspiring work with UNICEF. How did you first become involved with UNICEF?
I remembered Audrey Hepburn was involved with UNICEF and she is my absolute idol. I love her. I love her whole aesthetic. Interestingly, it was the tsunami in Southeast Asia that first drew UNICEF to my attention. I was driving in my car. My kids, at that time, were super young. They were maybe two and three years old. I turned on NPR, which is public radio. There was a UNICEF person speaking about what they were doing for the children that had been orphaned. There were so many orphaned children in Thailand. It was horrible. They have this thing called School in a Box where they basically set up under a tree and the kids come and gather around. It’s not just about like learning your ABCs and school- it’s about community. It’s a way to give them psychotherapy, to administer vaccines too, it’s a way to embrace them into a world they don’t have. The way she was talking about it, I was enamoured.
Cut to maybe a year later in America, we had [Hurricane] Katrina which was a disaster. New Orleans was flooded and the only NGO invited to help was UNICEF. UNICEF usually doesn’t work in America, it usually works in developing countries, but because they are so good at administrating supplies and helping in disasters, they were brought in. I thought “I want to do a fundraiser for Katrina and for UNICEF.” I threw a backyard fundraiser and I raised something like $5,000. I waltzed into the UNICEF offices and was like “Hello, I’d like to donate some money.” And they were like “Well, well, well, come have a seat!”
And then I joined the board! I love what they do. Since then I’ve visited five countries with them. I’ve been to Bolivia. I’ve been to Africa twice. I’ve been to Malaysia. I visited the sea gypsies in Malaysia with my daughter. They are these incredible indigenous people that belonged to no government, so though they live in Malaysia on the water, they don’t have any citizenship and so they have no rights to doctors, schools, anything. There are hundreds of thousands of them. So I get to learn about these amazing people and the work that they’re doing.
Those travels and meeting those people- has that changed or shaped your greater perception of what beauty is?
Absolutely. We can’t see beauty as something that’s just superficial. Beauty is as beauty does. It is what you do in your life that makes you beautiful. That’s something that I’ve tried to impart on my children.
The culture at our office is really about kindness towards others and doing good in the world. We do a collection every year for UNICEF. Last year we did a really fun collection and the proceeds went to a company in Los Angeles called Chrysalis, which gives a the skills to get a job to people who have been incarcerated or have just been down on their luck. It teaches them how to build a resume and gives them work experience and training. We’re always just trying to find ways to give back. I think that my work with UNICEF has definitely informed that.
I think that does come across in the branding. The language, the messaging, all of it just feels kind. It doesn’t feel like an intimidating brand. I know beauty can be intimidating to people, but it just feels warm.
Thank you. I definitely think so. We’re also very inclusive in a few other ways. Our colour shade range is very inclusive, and I think as an indie brand, we were one of the first that came out with 50 shades of foundation- and as an indie brand, trust me, that’s not easy. But I say if we can do it, there’s no excuse for any other brand not to do it. I get it. It’s hard and you’re not going to make as much money, but I think that it’s an important message.
You launched on Australian shelves in Mecca at the end of last year. What would you say are the differences between the way Australia approaches beauty and business compared to the U.S?
I’ve been reading Australian Vogue for probably 10 years. I had no idea we would ever launch in Australia. I like Australian Vogue more than American Vogue. I am no way, in any kind of way, an authority on an Australian beauty, but I do think it’s a little bit more healthy and natural of a look than American beauty. I think that American beauty is maybe perhaps more contrived. I love the Australian aesthetic. It’s just really clean and healthy and skin oriented.
You have sat at the helm of Jouer for 16 years now, but your love of beauty extends far beyond that. Over that time, what are the biggest changes you’ve seen within the beauty industry?
Honestly, two things.
One is the ability to speak to the customer right away. I can take a poll on Instagram- do you want a cream or do you want a powder? And boom, I can have an answer. It’s incredible. I think that that immediate feedback is just so great. You really can talk to your customer and understand their needs and wants and desires.
Other than that, I think the biggest change has been inclusivity. Boys are wearing makeup, there’s more colours and shades for more skin tones. I just think it’s broadened and that’s really exciting.
And what changes do you think we can expect to see in the coming years?
I’m expecting to see more innovation in the skincare arena. I think that science based skincare is the thing I’m most excited about. I love looking into and finding new formulas. I think we’re going to see more of that. And also just more inclusivity in general. More acceptance. I think I live in a bubble in Los Angeles. I don’t know how it is here in Australia, but I live in a great bubble. I just think you can be who you are. You can wear what you want, you can express yourself how you want, but I don’t think that’s quite hit all markets yet. So I think that’s going to keep evolving.
16 years, a few career and brand evolutions, global stockists, and more Best of Beauty Awards than I can count. My final question, what is next for Jouer Cosmetics?
A nap! A well earned nap.
Well, we are really excited to launch a brand new product this coming month, which is our lip oil.
It’s a high shine lip oil. And don’t be fooled by all the lip oils out there- they’re actually not made of oil! It’s really interesting when you start looking at other brands. I was looking at a hair brand who shall remain nameless, and they are very trendy, very cool. They’ve got a hair oil. If you read the ingredients, there’s literally no oil in it. It’s all silicones! It is all silicones and glycerides and whatever. It’s words you can’t even pronounce. Our lip oil is 99% plant derived. It’s got amazing ingredients. It’s high shine, it’s clean, it’s fragrance-free. It’s just gorgeous. It’s an incredible formula. Your lips are going to be glossy and gorgeous and cared for.
To listen to the full interview with Christina Zilber, subscribe to the Glow Journal podcast now on iTunes or Spotify
Photography and styling: Gemma Watts
