The following is an excerpt from the Glow Journal Podcast. You can listen to the full interview with Ellis Brooklyn founder and Bee Shapiro now on iTunes and Spotify.
GLOW JOURNAL: You were born in Taiwan and grew up outside out of Seattle. What is your very, very earliest memory of scent?
BEE SHAPIRO: My first memory of scent was actually really early. I moved to Seattle when I was three and a half, and I remember seeing snow for the first time. I know that’s a crazy early memory, but I think it was so jarring that it just stuck in my mind. I smelled snow for the first time when I was around four. I really, really remember it. It was such a clear memory. I was at Mount Rainier, which was where our uncle who was already living in the Seattle area, took us. I remember feeling the snow. I remember the smell. It was a really sharp memory.
What does snow smell like? I’ve never seen snow!
You do have to smell it because it is unique. It’s a little metallic. It’s very fresh and it smells cold. You smell it, and you’re like, “Ah, that makes so much sense, that’s what snow smells like!” But it’s so cold-smelling, that’s where that metallic feeling comes in.
Away from scent specifically, what’s your first memory of beauty in a broader sense?
My mom is obsessed with skincare. So I remember being in second grade and she, she still does this by the way, but she makes these homemade masks out of fruit and out of egg whites. It was so funny, I was just over at their place, over Christmas, and in their freezer are these ziplock baggies of fruit. I was like “What is this?” and she says “Oh, I pound it down to make a face mask.” So I had my first face mask, I think, when I was eight! I did an egg white mask. Beauty runs deep in our family!
How’s her skin looking? Is it working?
Her skin looks pretty good! I would say that she could do some services at this point, because I think one part about having skin that can pigment is that you can only do so much with products. Now, we’re living in the age of services. I think that certain things you just can’t tackle with creams and products and stuff like that.
I mean, marketing will have us all thinking otherwise…
I know, I know. I’ve been covering beauty for so long and, don’t get me wrong, I actually love beauty marketing. I think there’s something so fun about it. But I do think that sometimes… you can’t look like J-Lo, who looks like she’s like 25, just on products. That’s just not happening.
I understand that you majored in art and finance before going to law school, but when you were a child, what did you think you’d be when you grew up?
So this is something I like to tell people in interviews, because I think this is not spoken of enough. I did not know! I think a lot of people, so many people are like… great, if you knew when you were like eight years old, I wanted to run my own beauty business, that’s amazing. But I honestly had no clue. I was probably playing in the sticks!
So shockingly, and I know this is not the way of the world anymore, but I’ve never had an internship. I just went out and did things and I got jobs. I don’t come from a family of means, so every job I had had was paid. Some of the jobs were just useless for my career, like I was a hostess at a seafood restaurant…
That teaches you very important people skills, and it’s a high pressure environment…
Sure! Yes! It also teaches you not to eat some many clam chowder bread bowls in one summer.
That’s a life skill.
That is life skills! It’s wellness skills!
So I just did not know. And that’s why I went to law school, actually. I had no internships lined up. I had no job lined up out of college. I had good grades. I just had zero “real” work experience aside from my part time jobs. So I looked at these graduate school tests and I was like “Oh, I could take the LSAT!” I studied on my own. I did not even take a course. And I went to law school! So, I don’t think you have to have all the answers.
And off to Georgetown you went! So you just thought “Okay, this looks doable. This will be fine.” It sounds very Legally Blonde.
*Laughs* This was obviously not meant to be compliment, but I was working at a restaurant at the time and it was like a brewery restaurant and I was a waitress. and I told them “I’m going to law school.” They were like “We didn’t even know you were smart!”
Thank you very much, always good to hear from a fan.
Yeah! I was not the best waitress, so that’s why- I think. I really admire waiters, waitresses, bartenders, because I was horrible.
I’ve done the same thing. I was not good and too competitive for it.I would try and compete with the other waitresses, and they were like “That is not the point of this job.”
That was not my problem. My problem was I couldn’t remember. I would get orders that was like a salad with no croutons, no dressing, no iceberg and spinach instead of iceberg, 10 million substitutions, and I would just get really frazzled.
I think that’s on them. I think the more substitutions you add, the more chances are of you getting served the wrong thing.
That’s right. They should adjust their expectations.
So you graduated, you worked as a hedge fund attorney for about a year before you decided that you did not like it, which we will get to, but were there any learnings that you took from that time as a lawyer that you find you’re still applying to your work now- either as a writer or a business owner?
Absolutely. I would say I took away from law, and law from life, two huge things. One is work ethic. I’ve never worked harder in my life. I was always a smart girl, despite what my waitressing colleagues thought, and because I was smart, I always kind of was able to skate by- even in college. And then I got to law school and I was like “Oh my goodness, everybody’s smart. And educated. And they work crazy hard.” It was a reckoning for me. So I will always remember that work ethic, even at the worst times where I’m covering like some sort of red carpet, which I hate, I hate covering red carpets, but I will dig down deep and be like “Wow, this could be a lot worse. You could be stuck, chained to a desk, doing contracts.” So I always think about that.
And then two is, I do think knowing or having the capability and knowing that I am a lawyer, and when I first started out switching over to journalism and to beauty and into fashion, it does give you credibility. Not just this faux sense of credibility, but like “Wow, you actually learned something. You actually learned a skill that’s powerful.” I can read a contract. Maybe I also need to hire an attorney to help me look at this contract, someone who is a specialist, but I do have that [skill]. I’m not going into a business deal blind. So I’m so grateful for that experience. If you asked me, honestly though, 10 years ago, I’d be like “I’m still paying my law school loans, I can’t believe I made this mistake.” Fast forward 10 years later!
It’s all perspective, isn’t it?
It is perspective. It’s funny, right? And also, 10 years ago, I don’t think I used my law degree that much. But once I started Ellis Brooklyn it has really, really, really come into play.
So you had already moved to New York to take that job as a lawyer. Was it the city that inspired you to leave that role? Was it just that you didn’t enjoy it? Was it a combination of things?
I’ve always wanted to get to New York City. I applied to law schools here. To put the cherry on top of the ice cream sundae, I also applied to law school super late, so I was waitlisted at a bunch of schools. I was a waitlist at Columbia Law School. I’d been wanting to get to New York for so long. I definitely over romanticised it. Don’t get me wrong, I love New York. I truly do. But I, like so many people, romanticised it. I watched Felicity. I definitely took Felicity too much for real life. I wanted to be Felicity. I got obsessed with New York City for all sorts of reasons. So when I was applying for law firms, I specifically applied in New York because I wanted to get to New York. So I don’t think it’s the city necessarily that I left law for. I think that I would just… I never should have been a lawyer in the first place.
I was only a lawyer for seven months and then I quit. It wasn’t because I couldn’t do the job- I could have! I just thought there was more happiness for me somewhere else. I just thought “This can’t be life.” That’s literally it, there’s nothing profound. Just that “Wow, I don’t want to be that person that complains about their job.” I want to be a person that loves their job.
See, there’s something about that that I think is sort of profound, because there are so many people that do come home from work every day, hate what they’re doing, and just think “You know what? I’m just going to stick it out because leaving might be more difficult.”
This is true. I don’t think every single person has to love their job. I think you definitely be really good at what you do and make an amazing, very stable salary with great benefits and have a good life and focus on your spare time to be these other things that you want to be. I don’t think every person has to have this amazing, passionate career. That’s just not me though. I think I realised that when I was working from 10 to 10. It was extremely long hours. I was like “Well, I’m spending this much time at something, this is my life.” I didn’t want to be frittered away, and I didn’t really see an end game. I didn’t see an “Okay, well if I stay in law for 10 years, I’m going to then love it.” I couldn’t see anything. It was just a dead end for me.
I also realised that I am that person that needs to be passionate about their career. I don’t want to put pressure on people by saying every single person has to be enthralled with their career, because I don’t know if that’s true. You just have to know yourself.
And I do think that there’s a difference between coming home and just being completely miserable because then you can’t enjoy the downtime, but there are some people that can finish the working day and switch off and then enjoy the rest of their time.
Yes! And, I do have to say this, having started my own business and even with the New York Times writing, I have a job that I can’t switch off. So when I have a bad day, it is really, profoundly bad. I mean, talk about profound! It’s not one of those jobs where I’m like “Okay, well, I messed up today. It’s okay. I’ll just pass it on to my next coworker,” or “I’ll fix it tomorrow.” No. It’s not like that. When you are passionate about something, that means when you mess up, it also hurts extra. There’s pluses and minuses.
So you left your job, and you became a freelance fashion and art writer. You’d majored in art, so there was clearly already an interest there, but was fashion something that you’d always been drawn to?
Yes. Back when people actually went to the bookstore, I was that kid that went to the bookstore and pulled out all those extra large fashion magazines from Europe and sat there and read them and looked at collections. I was obsessed with fashion.
I did read somewhere that at one point you had an assignment curating contemporary art collections for private clients. How did that come about?
Oh my gosh, that sounds so fancy! When I quit the law firm I had a bunch of odd end jobs, and one of them was working for a major art collector. But I definitely was not curating anything, I was literally just a filing assistant! It was filing, putting stuff on little pieces of paper. It was not fun.
Filing is an important skill! If my research serves me, it was in around 2008-ish that you got a job covering fashion and lifestyle for the New York Times style section. You were the most junior in that team and, soon thereafter, an opportunity presented itself for you to move over to beauty. Now, beauty and fashion are of course inextricably linked, but there are a few differences if we’re looking things like ingredients and understanding the skin and so forth. Did that move from fashion over to beauty present any challenges?
I actually think they are quite different. I think the mentality is different. Obviously it’s changed, but definitely when I moved over at that time, because was not… you know, today you look at beauty and it’s so mega on social media. It’s a mega, mega industry. It always has been, it’s always been a huge money maker, but I don’t think it really had its own legs when I first started covering it. Instead, it sort of followed backstage at fashion week- Chanel’s amazing nail colours, the backstage eye shadows or whatever it was that they were using at Mac, that kind of thing. So that was when I started.
I have to be honest with you, even despite my early memories of skincare with my mom, I wasn’t a crazy beauty person. I just wasn’t. I think sometimes you’re a fashion person or you are a beauty person. So when I first got the job, I was very grateful because I was like number five fashion reporter out of five and I was getting the worst assignments. It was tough. The New York Times is competitive. It’s going to be. So when I first got beauty, I felt really lucky and really blessed, but I wasn’t necessarily like “Oh, I love beauty!” because I was a fashion person.
Now, I look back, and I’m so grateful that that happened. I feel like, as I’ve gotten older, first of all I care way more about beauty, I’m a huge beauty fanatic now, partly because I need it because I’m 39.
You don’t look it though!
Thank you! That’s called beauty services!
But I felt like I grew up with beauty, and I think it’s much harder to grow up with fashion because I think, as much as I love fashion, when you’re 25 and you’re running around New York City, you’re willing to suffer and wear those crazy heels, and you’re wearing a little mini skirt and you’re suffering for fashion it’s cool! But when you’re 35 and you have two kids, and you can barely wash your face, suddenly going to a spa and getting a facial is amazing. I don’t really care what handbag I’m wearing, you know? So I really did grow up with beauty, and I’m so grateful that it all happened.
Well we’re all grateful that you ended up in beauty because now we get to read your work and use your products. Naturally I do want to talk all things Ellis Brooklyn but, rather selfishly, I do want to spend some time on your role at the New York Times. I listened to your episode of Fat Mascara in which you were talking about how people often associate the beauty industry with vanity. You mentioned that your response to anyone who thinks beauty is a bit fluffy is “Everyone cares about it,” which is so spot on. So I would love to hear more on that. That interview was three years ago- now, are you still finding that people are dismissive of beauty?
One hundred percent. I have three columns for the New York Times- one is beauty related, one is fashion related and one is wellness, fitness and lifestyle related. The hardest one to book is the beauty one, still. And it’s extremely popular, all three columns are extremely popular, but I think there’s something about beauty that people still kind of like look down on. People who want to be “taken seriously” want to look down on it. It is really unfortunate because, for example, I’m always trying to get an older actress. I hate the word “older”, but it just is, right, because the New York Times has a readership that’s more in their forties and fifties. So I’m always trying to get somebody that’s their peer, their age group, and it is so difficult. When an actress, or well known CEO, or just an accomplished person gets to a certain level in their career, they don’t feel like they need to do any beauty interviews or share their secrets. And it’s really too bad, because then you have 20 something-year-olds telling the world what beauty should be. It’s actually this self-feeding cycle, and it’s really unfortunate.
Well on that, and on people sharing secrets, you have interviewed just about everyone of note about their beauty routines- and they’ve all opened up to you in really great detail. I think part of the reason people enjoy reading beauty is because we are so, so inherently curious about what people are using. When you began your column, social media wasn’t really part of the equation. But now with Instagram, everyone is sharing what they’re using every day. How do you, as a journalist, ensure that what you’re getting during these interviews goes beyond what we’ve already seen on socials?
So I go so far back in the social media lexicon that I was the first backstage beauty reporter to cover beauty backstage for fashion week. Instagram didn’t even exist- it was on Vine and Twitter. So I’ve definitely seen this movement, literally from the beginning.
First of all, I have to say, I love Instagram. I love all the different forms of media. But when this movement first happened, it started with blogs, if people even remember that, and then I went to Vine, and then there were some images you could post on Twitter, which was a big deal. It was these horrible resolution images post on Twitter. And then I moved to Instagram. All these little progressions, originally, was just this amazingly authentic interaction between influencers and some early editors that were on board and their audience. And it was, in some ways, a backlash to established women’s magazines at the time. Because everybody felt like the women’s magazines were too sponsored and didn’t really tell the truth. And suddenly you have this amazing blogger or influencer who is telling you exactly the way it should be, and giving you more approachable tips. Do you remember this era?
Yes, I was working in fashion at this time and there was a whole scandal, if you will, with Fashion Week here. All of the newspapers were covering the fact that Instagrammers and bloggers were getting the front row seats and the journalists had been pushed back.
Yeah! That was a real moment. It happened here too, for New York Fashion Week.
But the original inspiration for influencers is the fact that they weren’t sponsored. And then they got bigger. It got much more obviously into a business model. And now, today, I think influencers in general are much less reliable. If you look at anybody’s influencer account, there’s just spon con everywhere. You can’t really trust what they’re saying, because one day they’re wearing this perfume and, another day, that perfume.
I do think there are exceptions. I think that there are some influencers that really try to build trust, instead of just 10 million products. So there’s definitely exceptions. I just think you really have to weed out so many people in order to get that. I think it’s a tricky time we’re living in right now, because I do think women, and not just women- anybody looking for grooming or beauty tips, are having a hard time figuring out where they should look. I check out a lot of influencer stuff, and I trust only a few people’s recommendations and they’re not necessarily “influencers”. Some of them are store owners. Some of them are chemists.
I’m glad you’ve mentioned that you don’t necessarily look to traditional influencers and that you are looking to store owners and things, because another thing that stuck with me from that Fat Mascara interview was that you used the term “notable people” rather than celebrity, given the impact that social media has had on who we watch and who we follow. Has that shift in who we look to, to be influenced by, change the way that you write at all?
I actually had this conversation with my editor a year ago, but I still think this is true. I think I see it from two different ways. I think the idea of influence is really interesting because we have so many influencers now. And you look at their number of followers, and it’s to the moon. They should be able to sell anything. But I think that sometimes you get “influencers” who just have massive followings for pretty pictures and can’t actually move product and can’t actually really sell anything. You know, it’s just a pretty photo that people like to click “like” on. Sometimes figuring out who is what is really, really tough. Is that person still an influencer or still notable person? I don’t know. And I see that because, as I book my columns more and more and as news organisations and media care about clicks more and more, I have to say a lot of the influencers I have booked have not been able to move readership or traffic at all.
Versus somebody like Sharon Stone. I did an interview on Sharon Stone a while back and she’s somebody that’s amazing, obviously beautiful, and has a great beauty regimen. She was super honest, and she does not have a big social media following at all. And her article did so well. So I think that notion of false influence and who is a celebrity and who is not has gotten really muddled.
I would agree with that. I think there’s a real difference between the number of followers you have and then actually having clout, and having that trust. Because it’s more about dialogue. Sometimes I think the ones that have millions upon millions of followers, they don’t have the luxury of being able to answer everyone’s questions and talk with people. And that’s such a big part of it.
That’s a very good point. And it’s funny that word clout you mentioned, because I keep hearing that more and more.
Which is a good thing. It’s good that people are talking about it, because it can be so confusing for consumers. I don’t know what it’s like over there, but they brought in laws surrounding what you could post on Instagram here and that you have to legally disclose whether something is sponsored, but so few people are doing it.
We definitely have that with the FCC where we have to disclose. I think the tricky part is, as son con is so prevalent now, that I’m not sure if people even care. But at the same time, I always say this, there’s the trendy products that you see on Instagram and then there’s products that actually work. Sometimes they dovetail and sometimes they cross, but a lot of times I’ll get DMs asking me “What vitamin C serum I should use?” And I’ll be like “Well, which kind of recommendation do you want? You want something like really hardcore but not cool? Or do you want something cool?” And that works, you know, there’s all these different categories now.
Let’s talk Ellis Brooklyn. I understand that you noticed that the beauty industry was going largely paraben free and was moving away from toxins, if you will, but the fragrance space didn’t seem to be making that shift. This was around 2013 that you started thinking about it. Can you talk me through that time?
I was pregnant with my daughter Ellis at the time. I was still testing so much, so many products foe the New York Times. In all categories, really, there was a rise- the change in clean beauty. A lot of people don’t realise that clean beauty has been around for some time, but clean beauty historically was like Whole Foods brands. There’s nothing wrong with Whole Foods brands, they just aren’t aspirational. They’re a little bit like the ones you would find in health food stores. They’re a little more alternative looking. You certainly would not see them at a major retailer. So it was always there. What I saw, around then in 2012 and 2013, was this rise of clean beauty that was luxurious and efficacious and interesting and trend driven- but also clean. That was Tata Harper, RMS Makeup, these really cool, pioneer, clean beauty brands. I saw it across several different categories and I really didn’t see it in fragrance at all.
I think you’re either a fragrance lover or you’re not. I’m a true, real real fragrance fanatic and always have been. For me, as a writer, I just find fragrance so interesting because you literally can use no words, and you can smell something and it will pull up a memory so sharp and so clear that it’s better than reading a page long description about it. So I’ve always found fragrance fascinating. To see that category so entrenched and just not moving at all, I felt like there must be something different, there must be different alternatives. So that, that is really where that original idea for Ellis Brooklyn came about.
You launched the brand in 2015. We talk quite a lot about the process of things on this podcast, because it’s one thing to have this great idea, but it is another thing entirely to start, to find a manufacturer, to choose ingredients, to source packaging and so forth. So where did you start?
Oh, my goodness. I asked for so many favours that at one point I thought about quitting and I was like, “Oh my goodness, I can’t quit, because I asked for too many favours. That’d be so embarrassing!”
You’re accountable once you’ve started bringing other people into the fold.
Some of these people, some of these manufacturers are not google-able. They were so hard to find. I literally was asking everybody, and I have to be honest, as wonderful as the beauty industry is, it wasn’t always transparent or clear who was using what. I’m talking about things that are not sexy- things like boxes, things like sprays…
Well they’re important things to talk about! I feel like people think “I’m going to launch a beauty brand and beauty is really glamorous, so my life is going to be glamorous.” But it’s boxes and pumps and lids.
Yeah! And that’s where you start. For me, from an editorial side, it was a real reckoning because I realised I only saw the end product. I saw the beautiful end packaging. It was really a lot of learning. I laugh, but I remember I was confused at the time because I didn’t know where I was going. I didn’t even know what questions to ask sometimes. So it was just literally diving into the deep end. Like I said, I asked for so many favours at the time that I felt like I had to keep going. Now I’m super happy that I did, obviously, but I think it’s okay to have doubts in the early days.
Definitely. I think doubts are a very natural thing. Jerome Epinette is Ellis Brooklyn’s perfumer. Can you talk me through the scent development process and how the two of you work together?
Sure. So he’s our main perfumer. He’s done eight of our 10 scents. I think it’s really interesting because when you start working with a perfumer, it’s almost like dating. I say that because fragrance is very difficult to describe. So it’s about creative a vocabulary together, because one person’s idea of sexy is another person’s trashy, another person’s idea of sexy is being clean, like the smell of getting out of the shower. So it’s about creative that dialogue. When we use the word sexy, what does that mean? When we use the word fresh, what does that mean? So it actually takes a lot of trial and effort, a lot of sniffing, a lot of modifications of original ideas.
The way I work with Jerome is quite different, I would say, probably from most brands. We don’t use any marketing reports. We don’t use any sniffing tests. There’s no testing. It’s just us. Honestly, I’m a founder brand, so it mostly starts from an idea that I feel is missing or that I personally would want.
And then you take that to him and off you go?
Yeah! So originally, I would create mood boards etc. I sometimes even would send a song or something to get the idea across, but I think we know each other well enough now. He knows the brand DNA well enough now where we don’t even do that. I just send over a written idea.
I love that- it really is like dating, now that you just understand each other.
Some people still do mood boards. That’s why I say that we’re probably quite different, because at the end of the day, I’m a words person. So for me, it’s much easier for me to write a description than put together a beautiful mood board. I did try mood boards early on actually, but it didn’t work. So I was like “You know what? It’s much better to create this vocabulary between us.” And then we go from there.
When you launched, in 2015, the line was a collection of body milks. Why the decision to launch with an unconventional sent delivery system, rather than a classic eau de parfum?
So, first of all, I bootstrapped the business. I had no investor. So we launched with that, I wouldn’t even say collection- we launched with two body milks.
That’s a collection, a collection of two!
A duo! We launched with body milks because, at that time, that was how I was wearing scents. I was pregnant, I was working in the New York times, and there was a big open office floor plan. It was really obnoxious to spray perfume in a big open floor plan like that. So I always had a bottle of send some scented lotion on my desk, so that was why I did it that way.
I’ve seen so many brands come across my desk. I didn’t know, at the time, how small of a category body care is compared in fragrance. But again, I wasn’t reading any marketing reports, so I was just like “You know what? I want to do it.” It’s a founder brand, so I was like “I’m not starting a corporate brand. I get to be the founder. I want this to be as personal to me as possible.” So that’s how we started because that was how I was wearing it.
And then was it 2016 that you launched them as traditional perfumes?
Yes. So I knew that I always wanted to launch eau de parfums. But I have to be honest with you- sometimes I’m skeptical of these brand launches that come across my desk and there’s like eight fully formed scents suddenly, you know. I’m sure you’ve gotten them, right?
Oh yes.
You get this press mailer and suddenly it’s like, wow, this brand didn’t exist six months ago but now there’s eight scents in this super designer collection. I just don’t think scents work like that. I think you start creating a scent, sometimes it takes six months and sometimes it takes two years. I mean, I’ve had scents that I circle back to that are still not done.
So we launched with four scents and that took, my goodness, I guess three years to come to fruition, because I started working on it right in 2013.
I think this is why I love talking about fragrance, because I think we’ve something like skin care or makeup, once it’s ready, you know- because it works. That‘s the criteria. The product works. But with fragrance, it’s not about it working. There’s always room for “Oh, we could change this one little element or we could do this, or maybe this version was better.”
That is true. That’s actually a very nuanced thing. I have come to trust my gut, and I say that because our best selling scent is Myth, and Myth I actually created for myself. If I went into the “market report,’ or if I was to guess when we launched which would be the best seller, I would have told you our rose scent should be the best seller. It’s so likeable, it’s so beautiful, it wears so well. I never thought it was going to be Myth.
With Myth, I told Jerome exactly what I wanted and he nailed it. We had zero modifications, which is unheard of. But when I smelled it, I knew. And so I always go back to that because in product development, you can get really confused. You start smelling 10 million things. Does this one smell right? Does that one smell right? But actually, it is just like dating because when you know, you know.
Myth is my favourite. I wear Myth and West.
Oh that’s so good! That one is so personal to me, it really is.
It’s stunning. And the gel! That’s amazing too.
I’m really into innovation. I’m a big science geek. I just wanted to be able to deliver a product in a way, in a formulation, that was a different. Because let’s be honest, fragrance is kind of like the same same same. I wanted it to have a purpose. I was constantly telling my readers that if you are wearing a scent and you should moisturise, your skin should be moisturised, you should be prepped. I thought “Well, why don’t we put the prep in the same bottle?” So that’s why there’s hyaluronic acid in the Hydro Parfum. And it’s alcohol free because we also had some readers saying that they’re sensitive to alcohol. So that was really how it came about.
In recent years, we have seen a huge rise in both the prominence and the popularity of niche fragrance houses. Why do you think that consumers are celebrating these brands and investing in smaller batch made scents?
I think because scent is personal. I think that there is still value, and this is the beauty editor in me, I think there’s still value in these mass scents. I think though, a lot of people like me are looking to connect with their products more. I think that’s why niche is appealing. Because most often you have a founder who cares very much about what the product is being put out there, and caring less about the “marketing” aspect of whether or not to put out a scent, and it putting out a point of view. I think that’s super attractive, not just in scent right now, but in everything.
One of my girlfriends is the co founder of this very sustainable cleaning line called Blueland. And I just received a package from her yesterday and I was like “Oh my God, this is amazing.” You know, it was plastic free, she’s doing all this cool stuff, and it’s just cleaning products. But I was so jazzed by it! And I think that applies to almost all categories. I want to be proud of what I’m buying right now.
I’m glad you’ve brought up sustainability. We’ve touched on clean ingredients, but your brand is a champion of sustainability and responsible sourcing beyond just the ingredients. Can you talk me through the brand’s sustainability initiatives and what sustainability means to you? Because I feel like there’s so many different definitions and it can get a bit murky.
So sustainability is murky because it’s always a moving goalpost and it’s hard to get transparency. The sustainability part of our brand actually came along as the brand was being built. I did not start Ellis Brooklyn thinking I wanted a “sustainable brand”. I started Ellis Brooklyn because I wanted a safer option to wearing luxury fragrance, because I was pregnant and that was what I was concerned about. But as I started sourcing clean ingredients, I think you can’t ignore the fact that using a lot of naturals… what impact is this doing on the environment? As much as we love sandalwood or rosewood, they can often be very consuming for the environment and for the people that work in the fields. There’s just so many other factors that come into play. I think if you’re a clean brand and you totally ignore that, I’m not sure that’s the future.
I think the future is looking at what clean options we have. How are we responsibly working with farmers, or whoever is farming those fields and collecting and harvesting? What’s the impact on the environment of that? And also, what could maybe actually be made in the lab through green chemistry? I’m a huge champion of green chemistry. If you can make this synthetic that is safe, super safe, and it’s saving all these resources and smells amazing, then I’m definitely open to it. So I think that that’s the new clean beauty. When I first started Ellis Brooklyn, it was so much about naturals. As much as I personally love naturals, and I truly do, they’re beautiful, I think that if you’re responsible as a brand, you have to think about all those other complexities.
And even just the word “natural,” there’s so much confusion around that because, really, petrol is one of the most natural things that you can get but I’m certainly not putting that on my skin. But people hear the word “natural” and they think it will be better.
I know! I always tell people there’s good naturals, bad naturals, good synthetics, bad synthetics. Because, yes, mercury is natural! Lead is natural! We don’t want those things on us. Naturals has been put into this field of all good.
I would love to touch on your book, Skin Deep, which is a collection of upwards of 40 of your New York Times beauty columns. Given that you have profiled just about every celebrity under the sun, what is the best tip that you have picked up from one of your interview subjects?
I have two, two that I love.
I was travelling a lot, and I was getting really nervous about like getting sick. I interviewed Nicole Richie a long time ago. I don’t even know what she still does this, but she actually told me that she puts Lucas’ Paw Paw Ointment in her nose before flying. I’d gone to Mecca for training, to train the stores in Australia, And I saw all this Lucas’ Paw Paw Ointment before it was widely available. So I bought some and started putting it on my nose. I have no idea if it works, but I still do it to this day.
I think there is merit to that because I do the same. I got this when I interviewed KC from Lanolips– same thing, Lanolips 101 Ointment, up the nose, done.
You know what? So far I feel pretty good, so I’m just going to keep doing it.
The second tip that stuck with me and I really, really loved, Ellis Brooklyn aside, but I love fragrance. I interviewed Anna Kendrick, who is just adorable. You just want to be her best friend. She loves fragrance. You just never know who loves fragrance and who doesn’t. The way she collects fragrance is that she will buy a new fragrance for any big moment in her life. So that could be the beginning of a relationship, that could be an end of relationship. That could be the close of a movie. She buys a fragrance for every movie she was in. She uses it to commemorate memories. And she told me that once she opens that bottle, she’s like “Oh, I remember that I bought that when I was filming Up In The Air,” and because fragrance is so tied to memory I was like, how beautiful is that? I love that idea.
Who has been the most surprising interview subject?
In beauty or in general?
Hmmmm… let’s go in general.
I would say Keanu Reeves. When I started at the New York Times, because I was one of the youngest, if not the youngest reporter, when I first started in the style section, I had to cover a lot of events. I think there’s some people who enjoy covering events, but as I mentioned earlier, I hate covering red carpets. That’s the worst for me. As much as I like socialising, I’m probably naturally an introvert. And so it was painful for me to be on a red carpet- it’s like a cattle call. But I had to do it. This was me earning my stripes.
I remember I was covering the red carpet of an indie movie, and Keanu Reeves was the main actor. A lot of these actors, they don’t want to do the red carpet either, or they’re annoyed, or they hate answering your questions, it’s just not pleasant. But he was not about to be rushed. He answered every single question. He was super thoughtful about it. I don’t even remember what question I asked him, but I remember it wasn’t like your typical red carpet one, and he paused, he sat there and thought about it, it was just the most unique experience. And he didn’t have any handler. Most of them have handlers pushing them a lot. He just was answering everybody’s questions, it was such a lovely experience. He was just able to block everything out. He was not going to be part of that machine.
You have been a part of the beauty industry for close to 12 years now, and you’ve been a beauty brand founder since 2015. Over that time, what have been the biggest changes that you’ve seen within the beauty industry?
I think the biggest change I’ve seen is how we talk to the customer. When I first started, it was very much this top down talking- it was very much like fashion. It was like “You need to go get this hottest colour because this is the colour of the season and you have to have it.” And now it’s not about that at all. Whether it’s a founder or brand advocating for their customer or their client, it really is about “Well I have eczema and I created this line and it helps you with eczema because I tried so many other eczema lines and none of it worked, so I really care about you as a customer.” I actually have enjoyed that change because after covering so many backstage fashion weeks, it does get a little boring, and I have to say also it’s not realistic at all. Like who cares what some 18 year old models are wearing for two minutes down the runaway- it’s not real life. I much prefer what has happened with the shift because it is talking to women, and anybody who is using beauty products, in a much more realistic, thoughtful way.
What changes do you think can expect to see over the coming years?
I think it’ll be interesting to see how social media evolves. I say that because as much as I like social media, I also wish some of these social media trendy brands did better products. Because I’ve covered the industry for so long, sometimes I see these social media driven brands and they have amazing marketing, amazing packaging, they’re talking to the customer exactly the way she wants to be talked to, but then you try that product you’re like “Wow, I couldn’t place this to be different, or more or less efficacious compared to a hundred other brands.” It’s just very mediocre, very down the middle, very safe. And so then it becomes only about marketing, packaging and about how many followers you have. I don’t actually think that’s pushing the beauty envelope forward. I think it’s fun, so I don’t think we have to criticise it all the time, but I do think that we do need some really innovation-driven brands that are not just about looking cool.
My final question. What is next for Ellis Brooklyn?
What COVID has taught us is that, I think I knew this already, but I really, really understood it during this pandemic, is that every single launch, just going back to the basics of it, has to be personal.
I just don’t think it’s worth it at any more to launch something just because you think you should launch something. It was a reckoning and a listening thing for us because we launched two gourmands, which are launching Australia in September, called Sweet and Salt, and they were really personal to me. It’s funny, because everybody’s like “Oh wow, it’s genius. It’s so perfectly timed with COVID, these two gourmand scents named so simply.” But actually a year ago, when I came up with the idea, I was like “Oh my God, naming them sweet and salt is too basic. I’m nervous. No, we’ve never done coloured bottles.” It wasn’t as clear cut as people think it was. I think that, because it was such a successful launch during a pandemic, I was like “Okay, yeah, we need to go back to our roots of just every single thing we launch has to be that good.” And I think that’s a good thing.
And then on top of that, I also learned that there are certain countries that handled COVID better than us, like Australia and Germany. So we are looking to expand more globally. Right now where we’ve been focused on the US primarily, so we’re looking to expand more globally.
To listen to the full interview with Ellis Brooklyn founder Bee Shapiro, subscribe to the Glow Journal podcast now on iTunes or Spotify
